Meh

[temris]

It's Eid right now, and I have exams after a week. I had picked up a Turkish translation of the Iliad earlier this month and managed to finish it yesterday, but it was very boring. I'm not someone who gets bored easily when I'm reading something "historical". With this work I guess I was wrong.

I'll share here my review I've posted on Goodreads.

This is one of the few epics I tried reading and atp I think it's just not something for me.I appreciated the historical importance of the work I had in my hands yet I found it very boring, repetitive and mostly uninteresting. How can you make a war sound so uninteresting? I'm not even someone who is looking for bloodshed, action-movie like sequences, I knew what was waiting for me, yet; it is so incredibly dull, or maybe the translation I've read was the reason. But it is very certain how repetitive it was regardless of the translation.

Basically, the whole poem is a loop. We are in a never ending loop... One side seemingly about to win until some gods help their own side, then this time it's the other side who's going to defeat them; oh no, look, now some other gods help the first ones! Wow, so exciting..!

There were many times where I've read like I was trying to fill some quota, and not reading for the sake of doing something I liked. But there were also some okay moments. They were really few in a 16000 something line poem.

It's been some time since I've read something so very revered and put on a high pedestal only to find something so bland. I mean, it's one of the literary works Westerns claim as one of the pillars of their "civilization", so... (It is funny how back then Greeks would be rightfully considered Eastern, but oh well. The West is always appropriating everything anyway.) You kind of build an idea of an amazing poem inside your mind.

Besides that, I was very annoyed at the introduction of the work in the version I've read. It really made me feel like we didn't read the same work, because it just couldn't stop glazing it, and the worst part of it is that it was a woman, claiming that the representation of women in the Iliad was so flattering and emotionally beautiful. Are you serious? I think it was just their way of trying to make the Anatolians seem so homely and domestically "fluff" or something, since Turkish culture is more connected with Anatolia, but I did not see those things in the poem. Both sides were quite literally equally bad towards women.

I am now going to just unleash my anger because I remember all those who claim something so absurd; that "a war broke out because of such a beautiful woman" and that "ancient civilizations regarded women the most, more than modern men" or something so stupidly tradcel. Y'all reading this from your asses or something?? 😭😭 The man who "owned" Helen was angry because "his property was stolen" from him, not because he cared for her. And the abductor, equally, doesn't revere her for anything other than her beauty. Even the poet doesn't care about her as a human being.

In fact, I've also seen somewhere while I was researching to see if I was not understanding, or missing something; that someone claimed it's because throughout the whole poem, you can see that "beauty" in both men and women are revered most, and gives them their value. It is true, and like I said, since Westerners claimed this as their own and built their society upon works like this, now they make the whole world hell for all of us.

Finally, another complain about the translation: They claim that they kept the line numbers same with the original work. Okay, but then they didn't. I mean, they kept only the 5n ones. Because the others do not match, how can I use it to compare with other translations??? In fact, I tried to find one specific line in an English version, and I couldn't because of this.

Comments

[endless_natterings]

Hi! Oh my god thank you for taking the time to reply to my super long comment!! I really love talking about this stuff!! (And I got super excited to read such a long review and your perspective! I love love love hearing people's thoughts on this sort of thing!)

>>I didn't really get the message you've mentioned; how there's no glory in war, in this epic, at all. But it might be just for my grown disinterest before even getting to the half of it, and aforementioned "just trying to finish it already" feeling xD<<

So I probably did phrase things weird, but it was a sort (or at least potential?) explanation for why the text can feel slow/boring and cyclical at times. A lot of the more exciting bits are sandwiched between long stretches of people suffering and talking and causing problems out of their own stubbornness. It's the last year of a long and horrible war and the poem does try to contrast the thirst for glory that some of the characters have with just how terrible and pointless all of it is (which honestly just makes it so fitting in a very meta way when you say you just wanted to finish it already, because so many of the people involved in the story itself would've been thinking the same thing!).

>>I've heard how early English translations, like you mentioned, used a Latin version instead and caused people headaches for the names, as well as some very misogynistic words; as if it was not misogynistic enough LOL. I think Helen calls herself a "slut" or something?? I was like WHAT?!😭<<

It's truly awful!! Though I originally read a Spanish and then a French translation (I only got to reading the classics in English later on), where the Latin influence is even stronger and I hated it so so much because they fully just use the wrong names (why is Minerva here all of a sudden when the war aspect was fully sanded off in the roman version? Lets be so serious) and change stuff so often (more modern ones are better though I hear). And the misogyny towards Helen is atrocious, and so so pervasive.

>>The version I had was a Turkish translation from the Ancient Greek language, they even kept the goddesses name in the specific Greek accent that has "e" endings instead of Athenian(?) "a" i.e. Here, Athene, Helene; instead of Hera, Athena, Helena. So the translation I had almost no problem with; my only nitpick would be the usage of some weird unused words like "kızoğlankız" instead of "maiden" I believe; it's so unusual I thought it was a made up word, but apparently not.<<

That's so cool actually! I do love when they keep details like that! (Also, what was the context for that word that was used instead of "maiden"? I love translation and etymology stuff so I'm very curious)

>>The translation, like I mentioned, had a very long introduction and point a) you've written about was also mentioned there! I feel like even if it was not simply for Helen, she is still considered a part of that property. I'm not trying to apply modern morals to an ancient work here, I'm just saying it was weird to read about how it is "so lovely" towards women, in that introduction; instead of taking those lines as proof of how badly women were treated back then.<<

That's such a baffling thing to put in an introduction to the Iliad, and honestly I personally don't really read through the introductions unless I know the author in question and I trust/am curious about their interpretation. There's a lot of bias hidden in there

>>I write some fics in Ancient Roman settings, and I wanted to get more familiar with the mythology (their gods are appropriated yet a little bit changed, but still, you get what I mean).<<

That's awesome!!! Also, I'm a big nerd about this stuff (both on the Greek and Roman side) so if you ever need help researching and/or you have any questions I'd be more than happy to help (either mythology wise or on a cultural level I've read a lot)!! Like I've said, I love talking about this stuff! I'm not sure what era of Rome you're focusing on, but Ovid or Virgil might be more helpful to get a sense of it (though it's Rome, so there's always going to be a heavy political undertone to it).

>>But this time I'm thinking of picking the English version instead, they have George Chapman's, George Herbert Palmer's, E.V.Rieu's in the library; is there any among these you'd recommend?<<

My first point of advice here is to fully ignore Chapman (he fully translated from Latin and it's from the 1600s so the English is a bit clunky/strange to a modern reader, and it has a big Elizabethan slant to it). I've read it but it was mostly to cross reference something about the 17th century rather than the Odyssey proper, so it's not really worth it.

As for Palmer vs Rieu... The both translate from the Greek which is already a vast improvement and they were both actual scholars on the subject. And both of them chose to translate it into prose rather than verse. Palmer is 19th century, so his language is more dramatic and flowery (still clear enough, and I didn't have much trouble with it, but I do read a lot of 19th century English literature so take that with a grain of salt, I've been immunized XD). Rieu is mid 20th century and his entire goal was to make the text more accessible which he did do but I do find it a little more boring than other translations (also I like Palmer's translation of Penelope's dialogue better than Rieu's which is very important to me, Rieu doesn't give her nearly as much bite and wit as she's supposed to have. Though neither of them are the best with her)

Now, I'm a big nerd and I already love this book, so I do like to read translations side by side so I can compare them and it's a fun thing to do if you're into that. But if you only want to choose one from the ones here, I'd go with Palmer, at least the 19th century attitudes are further removed from us than Rieu's

(Also, there's also this site: https://scaife.perseus.org/library/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0012.tlg002/ which has both the original Greek and two translations. The Samuel Butler one is my favorite from what they've got on offer, but the good thing is that there is commentary on a sidebar for each chapter/book of the poem)

Thank you again and please let me know if you ever want to discuss any of this/need a helping hand finding references/information!

[temris]

Oh, I think now I understand what you mean about the war weariness aspect. Indeed, a lot of the men do need someone to keep fighting all the time, and all those talks could be seen as a reason for that. And the last part made me laugh haha xD I think everyone was fed up with Paris and that was so funny tbh 😭 Even Hector was like "I hate you man", and you know what, he is valid for that.

I originally read a Spanish and then a French translation

Omg how many languages do you know? 😭😭 I'm trying to study Spanish by the way!! I tried to read a children's novel in Spanish and realized Spanish got hands for me still...

Also, what was the context for that word that was used instead of "maiden"?

Okay, so the word "oğlan" means boy, but usually is for young boys. "kız" means girl, just the same way. Apparently, even far back as 13th century, Turks used the word "kızoğlan kız" to mean a very young girl, but seeing "kızoğlan" together just created a hermaphrodite person in my mind, that's why I was like what are you talking about haahah. We use the word "bakire" to mean "virgin" but it is of Arabic origin, and it could be why the translation used a weird archaic word instead, to seem more authentic to the historical aspect of the work? I've no idea to be honest.

And I do also love etymology and linguistics, everything language basically :) I'm studying ELT and you know, this also concerns the next paragraph too xD

I'm not sure what era of Rome you're focusing on, but Ovid or Virgil might be more helpful to get a sense of it

I'm mostly inclined to work around the time of Augustus Caesar because I love him so much 😌🩷 That's why I have bought the Aeneid some time ago, but haven't had the chance to read it yet :( My aim was to understand how the Hellenistic religion worked, or something like that, but also to at least know the basics for the Western literature xD

Finally, thanks so much for the recommendation and the link you've given me! Online open libraries are a god-send 🥳 But I do like having a book on my hands better, and my eyes also thank me for it fhdkfjg

I'll check both Palmer and Rieu then, and try to see if I can understand Palmer enough, if I do, I'll get that one from the library.

[endless_natterings]

>>Indeed, a lot of the men do need someone to keep fighting all the time, and all those talks could be seen as a reason for that. And the last part made me laugh haha xD I think everyone was fed up with Paris and that was so funny tbh 😭 Even Hector was like "I hate you man", and you know what, he is valid for that.<<

Exactly!! It's that sunk-cost fallacy! They've been at war for so long their pride demands it even if they were to consider the treaty fulfilled (and Achilles' attitude is not helping). And yes!! That bit with Hector is so funny! He's just so tired (did you know he's the eldest of like 80 siblings? I would've snapped so much sooner). Though he then turns around and ignores his wife's plea to please not go out and get himself killed so... A lot of bad decision making all around


>>Omg how many languages do you know? 😭😭 I'm trying to study Spanish by the way!! I tried to read a children's novel in Spanish and realized Spanish got hands for me still...<<

My first language is Spanish (so by the way, if you ever need help or recommendations feel free to ask!) and then I moved to France in middle-school so I had no choice but to learn. Those two and English are the ones I'm actually fluent in (though my accent in French is atrocious), but I can muddle my way through basic conversation and reading in Italian and Portuguese (benefit of romance languages overlapping)

>>Okay, so the word "oğlan" means boy, but usually is for young boys. "kız" means girl, just the same way. Apparently, even far back as 13th century, Turks used the word "kızoğlan kız" to mean a very young girl, but seeing "kızoğlan" together just created a hermaphrodite person in my mind, that's why I was like what are you talking about haahah. We use the word "bakire" to mean "virgin" but it is of Arabic origin, and it could be why the translation used a weird archaic word instead, to seem more authentic to the historical aspect of the work? I've no idea to be honest.<<

That's so interesting!!! I bet there's some overlap in there about medieval social roles and linguistics but I don't know enough about those language branches to say for sure!!

>>And I do also love etymology and linguistics, everything language basically :) I'm studying ELT and you know, this also concerns the next paragraph too xD<<

It's so much fun!! Languages just have so many layers and they reveal so much about culture and history!

>>I'm mostly inclined to work around the time of Augustus Caesar because I love him so much 😌🩷 That's why I have bought the Aeneid some time ago, but haven't had the chance to read it yet :( My aim was to understand how the Hellenistic religion worked, or something like that, but also to at least know the basics for the Western literature xD<<

You also love Augustus??? Same here!! (I find him so fascinating!) And that actually means Ovid would be a perfect addition to the list! If Virgil was properly commissioned and approved of by Augustus, Ovid was the other side of the coin. He did a lot of social commentary disguised as poetry and mythological interpretation (which did land him in a bit of hot water, he did end up exiled). Also if you can get your hands on it, check out his Heroides! It's a series of fictionalized letters from the perspective of women during the epic cycle (so Helen, Penelope, Briseis etc...) and not only are they a lot of fun (at least I liked them a lot) but it would also let you compare how Homer and his contemporaries saw the characters vs Ovid centuries afterwards!! Also for the religious/mythology aspect Ovid has his Metamorphoses and there's also Hyginus' Fabulae (this second one even has a section on mythological geneaology which can be very useful).

>>But I do like having a book on my hands better, and my eyes also thank me for it fhdkfjg<<

I relate so much!! Having resources online is good for referencing and checking stuff (because unfortunately I do not have infinite space in my bookshelves), but nothing beats turning a physical page while reading

>>I'll check both Palmer and Rieu then, and try to see if I can understand Palmer enough, if I do, I'll get that one from the library.<<

Sending you all the luck!!!!

[temris]

Indeed, Ovid's case always makes me laugh 'cause like what did you do???😭 To be fair, Augustus exiled so many people we could probably make a list...

+ I've never heard of Fabulae, it sounds interesting! I'll check it out too when I have time. In general, I don't really do a lot of Latin reading now except for biographies online that I noticed... Thanks so much for every input you've given me!! ˆˆ